KVRAF
10595 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

fmr wrote: ↑6. Study the different cadences (perfect, imperfect, evaded, suspended – AKA half cadence or semicadence, plagal, interrupted, etc.) because it is very important that you know all of them. You can start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadence_(music)

That looks like a familiar blast from the past

We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My is back online!!

KVRist
460 posts since 6 Feb, 2005 from Portugal

fmr wrote: ↑ Contrary to what jan said, I think that’s the right thing to do.

Everyone is dfferent from the other so everyine thinks and learns in different ways and using different strategies.
So, I take evryone’s oppinion in consideration and use what I think is important and useful for my learning strategies.
Everyone’s input is welcome!

fmr wrote: ↑ Regarding your remarks:

1. Direct octaves are NOT and never were forbidden. They are even commonly accepted when the upper voice moves by a single degree. Remember that you are working with four voices, so, it is inevitable that some of the voices have direct movement between them.

Remember I’m following Fux/Bach’s rules. I haven’t learned too much counterpoint yet but I marked it because it is not allowed/adviseable to approach an 8ve/5th by similar motion unless the soprano moves by step, which is not the case (btw soprano and bass the 8ve in the first bar goes up by a 4th and in the last bar it goes down by a 3rd.

BertKoor wrote: ↑ That looks like a [url=<span class=”skimlinks-unlinked”>viewtopic.php?f=99&t=327547</span>]familiar blast from the past[/url]

Indeed! As I mentioned previously I’ve learned a few things some years ago and now I’m recalling it.

Last edited by rbarata on Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

KVRist
460 posts since 6 Feb, 2005 from Portugal

fmr wrote: ↑ Contrary to what jan said, I think that’s the right thing to do.

Everyone is dfferent from the other so everyone thinks and learns in different ways and using different strategies.
So, I take evryone’s oppinion in consideration and use what I think is important and useful for my learning strategies.
Everyone’s input is welcome!

fmr wrote: ↑ Regarding your remarks:

1. Direct octaves are NOT and never were forbidden. They are even commonly accepted when the upper voice moves by a single degree. Remember that you are working with four voices, so, it is inevitable that some of the voices have direct movement between them.

Remember I’m following Fux/Bach’s rules. I haven’t learned too much counterpoint yet but I marked it because it is not allowed/adviseable to approach an 8ve/5th by similar motion unless the soprano moves by step, which is not the case (btw soprano and bass the 8ve in the first bar goes up by a 4th and in the last bar it goes down by a 3rd.

BertKoor wrote: ↑ That looks like a [url=<span class=”skimlinks-unlinked”>viewtopic.php?f=99&t=327547</span>]familiar blast from the past[/url]

Indeed! As I mentioned previously I’ve learned a few things some years ago and now I’m recalling it.

KVRAF
7512 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto – Portugal

by fmr » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:27 am

rbarata wrote: ↑

fmr wrote: ↑ 1. Direct octaves are NOT and never were forbidden. They are even commonly accepted when the upper voice moves by a single degree. Remember that you are working with four voices, so, it is inevitable that some of the voices have direct movement between them.

Remember I’m following Fux/Bach’s rules. I haven’t learned too much counterpoint yet but I marked it because it is not allowed/adviseable to approach an 8ve/5th by similar motion unless the soprano moves by step, which is not the case (btw soprano and bass the 8ve in the first bar goes up by a 4th and in the last bar it goes down by a 3rd.

The counterpoit rules are only applicable on two voice exercizes. And in Fux, you will not read that direct 5ths/8ves are forbidden (AFAIR) – you read that they should be avoided especially WHEN there is a jump in the upper voice. If the upper voice moves by just one degree, that’s OK.

However, when you are working with four (or more) voices, the rules are not so rigid anymore, because otherwise you would risk to end in impossibilities. And the melody is pre-existant, so, it cannot be changed (in principle).

There are some things that Bach does that are not so strictly “canonic”, but one thing you can be sure – they are musically meaningful, and that’s what matters, in the end. Study carefully, but don’t get stuck in the details.

KVRist
460 posts since 6 Feb, 2005 from Portugal

fmr wrote: ↑ The counterpoit rules are only applicable on two voice exercizes. And in Fux, you will not read that direct 5ths/8ves are forbidden (AFAIR) – you read that they should be avoided especially WHEN there is a jump in the upper voice. If the upper voice moves by just one degree, that’s OK.

I believe, as we’ve discussed before, that direct 5ths/8ves might pose a problem only when the outer voices are involved. In the inner voices they’re ok, right?

fmr wrote: ↑ There are some things that Bach does that are not so strictly “canonic”, but one thing you can be sure – they are musically meaningful, and that’s what matters, in the end. Study carefully, but don’t get stuck in the details.

One thing I forgot to mention in my analysis that might fit into this are the crossed voices. There’s are some in there.

KVRAF
15167 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location
Contact:
I apologize if my tone was too harsh.

It’s frustration. The idea to look for mistakes by JS Bach is not going to move you anywhere good.
This is why I went into anecdotes and tried to provide context; I already showed you Bach committing teh hidden octave.
The rules are not rules to be obeyed unquestioningly; “Music Theory” should never be like this.

The value of checking such an example out is “Here is exemplary part-writing, see what you can glean from it.”
And if you have no idea, ask someone.
(You need to be doing part-writing, and apparently – please do not take this the wrong way – in a structured environment. Actually, even as I have mostly relied on independent study, when it came to this level of writing parts, I needed a course. The feedback in real-time rather than people – like me, or anybody – on the internet when we get a chance is invaluable.)

I would say that per such an example as this, the first thing to do is find out what every harmony is. You may not be able to account for every note (there are one or two ‘unresolved’ dissonances considered vertically) but since inversions are relatively new to you, account for all of the bass. Figure the bass; this is fundamental. I’m not a professor of this, I have never built a coursework or any of that, so I appear to have taken your statement of, you’ve been at it for ‘8 years’ and done something with it I should have reflected on more.

KVRAF
7512 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto – Portugal

by fmr » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:07 pm

rbarata wrote: ↑ I believe, as we’ve discussed before, that direct 5ths/8ves might pose a problem only when the outer voices are involved. In the inner voices they’re ok, right?

Even in outer voices, as long as the upper voice moves up or down a single degree.

rbarata wrote: ↑ One thing I forgot to mention in my analysis that might fit into this are the crossed voices. There’s are some in there.

Yes, that’s something that’s not uncommon in Bach, but ONLY in the middle voices. It has to do with the melodic lines of each voice, which Bach cared much. That’s why I told you to listen to each vopice indivudually. It’s important for you to realize how each voice makes sense even when listened on its own.

KVRian
869 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK
Contact:
You have a lot of good advice of various sorts here…as you say, sift through it and use what is useful to you.

I won’t add too much more or you’ll be swamped, but I will highlight what I think are the key, central, core points / issues you need to address as you progress…

jancivil wrote: ↑ The idea to look for mistakes by JS Bach is not going to move you anywhere good.

100% Agree with Jan on this…bit pointless and potentially quite confusing. Analyse Bach, but not in this way. More, ask yourself why it is so good!

jancivil wrote: ↑ the rules are not rules to be obeyed unquestioningly; “Music Theory” should never be like this.

Always keep that thought in the back of your mind.

fmr wrote: ↑ when you are working with four (or more) voices, the rules are not so rigid anymore, because otherwise you would risk to end in impossibilities.

That is so true…a practical, pragmatic truth.

fmr wrote: ↑ they are musically meaningful, and that’s what matters, in the end.

That’s actually what matters! every note in a Bach Chorale is MUSICALLY MEANINGFUL. There is a musical, (often melodic), reason for it’s use and NOT a music theory one.

fmr wrote: ↑ The end of the first phrase is what is commonly called a suspended cadence.

Just in case there’s any confusion here as different terminology abounds with cadences….it’s also known as a half cadence, imperfect cadence or semi-cadence and, as mentioned) is considered a weak cadence that calls for continuation.

fmr wrote: ↑ If you can, sequence the chorale, and mute the inner voices (alto and tenor). Then listen to the two remaining voices alone, and play the bass alone. Then mute the soprano, and listen to just the other three voices. Mute each three voices, and listen to each voice alone too.

That is a really useful thing to do so that you can listen to the individual melodic lines…that is how Bach wrote them….as four strong melodic strands.

fmr wrote: ↑ Study the different cadences

Absolutely!!!

My students often start a piece with sketching out the cadences and then working back from there…they are the key moments!

THE KEY OF THE PIECE IN QUESTION:

It is clearly in B minor at the start.
First phrase ends on a relatively weak imperfect cadence II – V

Second Phrase is more interesting in some ways. I did it all very quickly in my head and started straight into D Major for dramatic effect.

Bach, however does NOT! He more subtly begins on an F# minor chord followed by a B minor 7th…these two chords are slightly ambiguous in this context until the next one enters…

This A7 first inversion clearly hints at a move to D Major…confirmed by the next chord. then Bach very smoothly leads us back to B minor by the end of the phrase …V – I perfect cadence in root position.

Third phrase:
Again, here I was personally tempted by going straight into D Major…the leading line was telling me this in my head as I ‘listened’! Bach, however, knows better and keeps it firmly in B minor with that opening F# Major chord leading to a B minor.
Then the descending bassline with that A natural pushes the tonality back towards D major…which is where we are at the end of the phrase with a relative major key V – I perfect cadence in strong root position.

Final Phrase:
After the pause we have a slight tonal ambiguity with the alto rising from A to B, but that is solved by the return of A# in the next chord…clearly back towards B minor again…where the music stays quite firmly until the final B Major finish.

Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

KVRAF
3126 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

fmr wrote: ↑ The counterpoit rules are only applicable on two voice exercizes. And in Fux, you will not read that direct 5ths/8ves are forbidden (AFAIR) – you read that they should be avoided especially WHEN there is a jump in the upper voice. If the upper voice moves by just one degree, that’s OK.

The only thing Fux speaks of as forbidden is the tritonus afair. However, his first rule of motion, “From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion”, leaves out parallel fifths and octaves a good deal along the way. And when oblique motion is used, one is to avoid hidden direct movements as well, e.g. “one may not do so because two fifths follow each other of which one is apparent and open, the other, however, concealed or hidden, and would stand out by diminution of the interval…”

This is not to start a bar fight over counterpoint once again, but to suggest a base concerning parallel movements in 5ths and 8ths to which we should agree if it is Fux we refer to.

KVRist
460 posts since 6 Feb, 2005 from Portugal
Thanks for the comments, my friends

I’m having fun doing these analysis. Too much to reply so, I’ll keep doing it for the 2nd phrase (in fact I’m doing it already).

Jancivil, I didn’t took it as harsh…well, just a little bit.
But I know you’re right… a classroom environment is the best but unfortunately my personal life doesn’t allow me to have them, at least for now. So I’m trying to do things this way.
As you’ve said, I’ve been on this for 8 years…in true, there was a hiatus of 6 years, if I’m not mistaken, between the last time I took some theory and now. And I feel proud for what I’ve learned in spite of the less than ideal learning environment.
Focus, determination and humility!… and passion!

About Bach…I was not thinking about it in terms of errors. Maybe I’ve used not the best words but, in the back of my mind, I knew there is certainly a reason why he did those things that way.

The unresolved dissonances you mentioned I believe one of them is the aug 4th between alto and soprano (last bar) but the other one I didn’t noticed it. Where is it?

KVRian
869 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK
Contact:
IncarnateX wrote: ↑

fmr wrote: ↑ The counterpoit rules are only applicable on two voice exercizes. And in Fux, you will not read that direct 5ths/8ves are forbidden (AFAIR) – you read that they should be avoided especially WHEN there is a jump in the upper voice. If the upper voice moves by just one degree, that’s OK.

The only thing Fux speaks of as forbidden is the tritonus afair. However, his first rule of motion, “From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion”, leaves out parallel fifths and octaves a good deal along the way. And when oblique motion is used, one is to avoid hidden direct movements as well, e.g. “one may not do so because two fifths follow each other of which one is apparent and open, the other, however, concealed or hidden, and would stand out by diminution of the interval…”

This is not to start a bar fight over counterpoint once again, but to suggest a base concerning parallel movements in 5ths and 8ths to which we should agree if it is Fux we refer to.

Utterly, 100% take your point here, but by the time Bach was writing music, conservatives were losing the battle over the tritone. Bach certainly used it in certain situations.

Fux and the tritone is a weird case:

“The tritone is to be avoided even when reached stepwise [examples] if the line is not continued stepwise and in the same direction.” that’s from the A. Mann translation of Fux..page 35 footnote.

Yet, there are a number of examples in the book that apparently break that rule:

Page 36, Figure 14, the bass part is: F3, E3, F3, A3, Bb3, G3. This violates the rule given in the footnote by moving from E3 to Bb3 without continuing stepwise in the same direction.

Page 37, Figure 15, soprano line – we have a descending tritone without continuing stepwise in the same direction!

Page 39 — Figure 21 — tenor…Again, a descending tritone not followed by step in the opposite direction.

OF COURSE, THERE IS AN ANSWER TO THIS APPARENT CONUNDRUM, one that explains why the tritone issue is very much an historical one that should be treated with caution nowadays…

The tritones I mention above are diminished 5ths and NOT augmented 4ths!

‘What’, I hear some cry. ‘Are you a fool, for they are one and the same thing, surely?’

Yes, they are today in our Western classical music equal temperament tuning system, but not way back then…

Don’t forget that it is a historic book that is adhering to the practices of the time.

It was written before equal temperament tuning become standard…So there might well have been a subtle difference in the sound between a diminished 5th and an augmented 4th!

These two intervals came up in different situations in medieval and renaissance music and had different rules. It’s important to remember that—although augmented fourths and diminished fifths are the same size, 600 cents in equal-tempered music—they are different intervals in just intonation and in the various meantone and well temperaments that pre-date the far more recent practice of equal temperament. In fact, there are many different possible sizes for these intervals. One fairly common measure of the augmented fourth would be about 570 cents, and its partner diminished fifth would have been about 630 cents (thus adding up to a perfect octave, 1200 cents).

Bottom line, the “tritone” (aug 4th) had a far more specific meaning in Fux’s day, and had rules distinct from the diminished fifth.

Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music